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1:00
The Best Documentaries from the BBC World Service Welcome to the documentary on BBC
1:18
World
1:18
Service with me, Swazishiri, and I'm joined by Gospel Legend, Fred Hammond, with a
1:24
career
1:24
spanning over four decades, starting from his time as a bass player for the Gospel
1:28
Group
1:29
The Winens, to join as one of the original members of the group commissioned before
1:33
stepping
1:34
to the front to sing to lead the group Radical for Christ and Beyond.
1:39
Fred Hammond is synonymous with Gospel Music and has shaped the sound we know and
1:43
love
1:44
today.
1:45
Fred has received 15 Grammy Awards and has toured around the world, and his recent
1:50
tiny desk concert shared on social media showed the impact his music has had.
1:55
I have grown up loving Gospel Music, and now I'm a radio presenter at BBC Radio 1
2:00
Extra
2:00
and Radio 4, and I love that I get to interview Gospel artists.
2:05
For this two-part series on Heart and Soul, last week I spoke to Kirk Franklin to
2:10
find
2:10
out more about the man behind the music, and now I cannot wait to do the same with
2:15
Fred.
2:17
Like Kirk, Fred has been open over the years about the highs and lows he's faced,
2:22
and
2:22
I want to find out more about his life and personal faith journey to better
2:26
understand
2:27
what's influenced some of the biggest Gospel songs in the world.
2:31
In the field, what you say now, what you say now, what you say now, what you say
2:43
now, what you say now.
2:43
How you doing?
2:44
I'm good.
2:45
I'm really, really good.
2:46
Well, thank you so much for joining us.
2:47
How did your journey of music and faith start?
2:51
I started when I was very young.
2:53
I didn't really want to be a singer.
2:56
When my mother, she used to teach choirs at a lot of different churches, and so
3:01
when
3:01
I'm five or six, my mother brings home a record with these five dudes on there, and
3:07
one
3:07
of them was like seven, and I was enamored with his voice, and it was a Jackson
3:13
Five.
3:14
I was just singing along with it.
3:16
My mother was cooking and singing Jermaine's part and his part, and I just loved it.
3:21
She said, "If you open your mouth, you can sing like that little boy, but I was too
3:25
shy,
3:26
so I thought she was going to put me up a church and sing in front of all those
3:29
people.
3:30
I picked up my little record playing when upstairs in the closet, shut the door,
3:33
put it on the
3:33
flashlight, and I sang it in the closet, because I did not want her to put me up in
3:40
front
3:40
of people."
3:41
That's why I started.
3:44
We were from Motown, so we were just a music village, and then as I got older, I
3:49
started
3:50
playing drums.
3:51
She would take me to choir rehearsals, and I would play a little three-piece set,
3:55
and then
3:55
as I got older, she told me that she saw that I was standing in line at the church
4:00
to
4:00
play drums, and I wasn't getting an opportunity, but the bass was just sitting over
4:06
there in
4:06
the corner.
4:07
Nobody was messing with it, so she said, "Why don't you pick up something else?"
4:10
I said, "Well, I like the bass a little bit.
4:12
I learned that."
4:13
I started learning that.
4:15
The next thing you know, where?
4:17
Where?
4:18
Oh, that's amazing.
4:19
But what was that transition then?
4:20
If you was quite a shy kid to step to the front and sing, how did you know that the
4:24
Lord
4:24
was calling you to something maybe that you didn't even have planned?
4:28
You know what the funny part was, even then, let's go back to elementary school.
4:31
I'm in the third grade going to the fourth, and we were at this thing, and the
4:35
Jackson
4:36
Fathers were really hot.
4:38
So they asked us to come up to the front of the class, they said, "If you finish
4:42
your
4:42
work in time, we're going to dance and listen to music."
4:45
Everybody was cool, and everybody got to work done and cleaned off the desk, and
4:49
all
4:50
everything was done.
4:51
So we had about 15 minutes of class, and she said, "We got these little boys right
4:57
here,
4:57
Jackson Fathers, cool, and everybody wanted to hear him."
5:00
And they said, "We listened to the song one time, and then the next thing you know,"
5:04
she said, "Well, do we have a Jackson Fathers in here?"
5:06
And so about eight of us ran up to the front, like, "Yeah, of course."
5:10
And I remember this, because Regina, one of the girls said, "I won't give her a
5:14
last
5:14
name," to embarrass her.
5:16
She was like, "Sit down, Fred, and she hollered me out."
5:19
"Sit down, Fred, Fred, and then sit down."
5:22
And I was like, "I was already shy, but my boys was up there, so as I was going to
5:28
sit,
5:29
I took a step, and then we were talking, we were singing and singing, and so we was
5:33
doing
5:33
the dancing, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we was
5:36
doing
5:36
all this stuff, and make it up the steps on the spot.
5:38
And George, another print name, George, he was Michael, and he had charisma, he
5:42
could
5:42
spin, he could sing, he could, he just, but when, when, when, your mains part came
5:46
up
5:47
on, "I'll be there," I looked at Myron, Myron stepped out, and he looked at me, and
5:54
I stepped out, and I just sang, "Oh, I'll be there to comfort you," and I could
6:02
mimic
6:02
how people sounded.
6:03
I didn't know what to sing.
6:04
I didn't know what to sing.
6:05
I didn't know what to sing.
6:06
And all of a sudden, the next thing you know, Regina, the loudest one, "Woo, three!"
6:11
[laughs]
6:12
Shout out, shout out, shout out, and you won't get away from it.
6:16
You didn't even want me there.
6:17
You didn't want me there.
6:18
Now I was sitting, "Now you're all the bum."
6:20
Oh, that's amazing.
6:21
That's incredible.
6:22
You've gone on to really shape the gospel sound.
6:24
We are so grateful for you.
6:26
[music]
6:37
I want to know, why is gospel music so powerful?
6:39
What is it about the harmonies, and what is it about the choirs that, for someone
6:43
like
6:43
me, that cannot sing, I can't help but join in, why is gospel music so powerful?
6:48
Because it's the power of the unit.
6:52
Like you'd know it's slightly different.
6:54
If you hear somebody with a really beautiful voice, and they're singing to you, and
6:58
you're
6:58
listening, it can touch you, all right?
7:01
And today's gospel music, gospel singers are the greatest, but they're doing a lot.
7:05
They're really, they have a lot of skill.
7:09
But once you acknowledge the script, you're magnified a little with me and let us
7:13
exalt his name together.
7:14
That comes alive.
7:15
All of a sudden, once you start to sing the Word of God, you start to be, you know,
7:21
you
7:21
feel the anointing.
7:22
And then you, and the person next to you, and then the person next to you, and the
7:25
whole
7:26
place is crying out, singing the same thing on one accord.
7:29
That's when the Lord said, he comes in, and he said, I'm in the midst of your praises.
7:34
And once you, it's about singing, when I write, when I left commission, one thing I
7:39
did
7:40
was, I wanted to write songs that people sang, and not people listening to me sing,
7:47
and
7:47
he just told me, write these songs, he started giving them to me, and there were
7:51
songs that
7:52
allow people to sing with me, corporate worship, sing, and you have to sing in the
7:58
style
7:59
that you know.
8:00
I'm, I'm urban, so, you know, I'm, I'm going to sing in that kind of style, it's
8:06
going
8:06
to, people are going to know, I don't know why I like this song, but it probably
8:10
sounds
8:10
like this group over here in that group, and this is what you hear every day.
8:13
And for one of your songs, for many of us, no weapon is, yes, scripturally based,
8:30
as
8:30
I have for 417, what was going through your life at that time to make you pen such
8:35
a
8:35
song that for many of us, we still sing, especially when we're going through tough
8:39
times?
8:40
I didn't start out to start any genre, like when we did commission, I didn't say,
8:44
we
8:44
going to do this, it's going to change the game, we just did what we did, you know,
8:48
what
8:48
we were saying, what we sang.
8:50
Same thing with this, I didn't start out to be the, what they call the architect of
8:54
praise and worship.
8:56
I just took praise and worship, and I brought it over to the urban side.
9:01
Now, my Caucasian friends and family, they have been doing praise and worship for
9:06
20, 30
9:08
years.
9:09
But our culture was singing from our experience.
9:11
So that's why some of the Jesus will work it out.
9:14
I'll turn it over to him, the baby, the pair of shoes, even got a light build, do,
9:18
but
9:18
I'm going to tell you what I'm going to do.
9:20
We're singing from our experience, you say, I must tell Jesus all of my struggles,
9:24
Jesus
9:25
can help me, Jesus alone, well, then praise and worship, just reverse that.
9:29
I'm going to tell my troubles about Jesus, I don't, you already know what I got.
9:34
So as I started singing, I came up with this thing where it was called a flow.
9:39
I got into this thing where if I heard the message, I can take immediately a song
9:44
and make
9:45
it to the message.
9:46
So the preacher was preaching and one of the guys was playing on the organ and he
9:50
was playing
9:50
this little thing.
9:52
And the preacher was preaching, he went to just one woman and said, I'm restored, I'm
9:58
restoring
9:58
what the kankuworm and the malthabitans with the thief have stolen.
10:02
He just went on, you're not a year's will be, and she's shouting in the audience is
10:06
shouting.
10:07
And then he looked to me like, take it away, what you got?
10:10
Right.
10:11
And right out of that, you know, I put fun against me, I'm like, okay, keep coming
10:15
Lord.
10:16
Shall prosper, what I'm going to do here, now how can I make the nid won't work, it's
10:21
just that simple.
10:22
No way.
10:23
And then the next thing was God would do what he said, he would do, not a man, he
10:27
should
10:28
lie.
10:29
He would just keep repeating that and we sang that for a year.
10:32
And when we did it, it would go into 30 to 45 more minutes of extended change.
10:36
A worship.
10:37
Yeah, wow, what an incredible story.
10:43
What's your testimony though?
10:53
You grew up in church and I guess I've heard the music side of things, but how did
10:57
the
10:57
lords grab your heart?
10:59
How did you put your faith in trust in Jesus?
11:02
It was, you know, my father died when I was a Ray Hammond and I didn't know that he
11:07
adopted
11:08
me.
11:09
I remember the proceeding, but I always thought he was my dad.
11:12
But truly enough, you know, my mother and real father had an affair because of
11:17
pastor and
11:18
her.
11:19
They had an affair and I was born out of wind life.
11:22
And this guy, Raymond Hammond, took my mother and myself on and he gave me his name.
11:28
And he didn't really go to church and when he died, my mother walked away from God.
11:36
She said, I'm 32, nobody else in his family and he has a big family, nobody else on
11:42
our
11:42
block.
11:43
Nobody else's husband died, but you let mine die and he was only 32.
11:48
She said, I'm good on you and she walked away from God for about two years, you
11:54
know.
11:54
And we didn't go to church, we just played, you know, she wasn't a horrible person.
11:59
She didn't go out to cry, and then drinking and smoking and, you know, but she just
12:04
didn't
12:04
like God anymore.
12:06
Then one day, about two, two years later, we were coming home, I was coming home,
12:12
probably
12:13
from little league football practice.
12:15
And she said, we're going to start going back to church.
12:19
You are coming up on the age of accountability, which is 12, you know.
12:24
And you need to know the Lord for yourself and we are not upset with God anymore.
12:30
And so now that was her witness that I'm sitting there in the car just listening.
12:36
She said, I would take you tonight to see at church, I just can't, this is a movie
12:40
called
12:41
The Rapture.
12:42
And I said, what is that?
12:43
She says the second coming.
12:45
And I said, oh, I like that movie.
12:47
She said, no, you haven't seen this one.
12:49
And she started saying, one day, God is going to come back, what's going to come
12:53
back?
12:53
She's going to crack this guy and XYZ and XYZ.
12:57
And those that know him and love him will be changed in a twinkle of eye, but those
13:01
that
13:01
don't, they're going to be left here and it's going to be, you know, she really
13:05
explained
13:06
it to me the way I can understand it.
13:08
And now I'm paralyzed.
13:10
I just heard a horror story and I can still feel it.
13:15
I couldn't talk.
13:16
I just stood there.
13:18
She said, well, I have to go away, but we're going to start going back to church.
13:21
We're not going to listen to, you know, soul music, which is R&B music on Sundays,
13:26
you
13:26
know, all the way up to five o'clock.
13:27
She was giving me some new rules and then I said, okay.
13:31
And I went in the house like I saw the worst scary movie I ever saw.
13:38
And we had a rule, my mother had a rule, do not go in my room for nothing.
13:45
And when she was there, we had to stand up to do it and say, you know, my, and she
13:49
said,
13:49
oh, it come.
13:50
You know, it was sacred.
13:52
So I was so pricked to my heart because early that day, I was just a kid in the
13:58
hood.
13:58
And I went to the safest place in the house, which is her bedroom and I kneel down
14:05
for
14:05
her bed and tears when I, as soon as I hit the floor, I don't know anything about
14:12
this
14:12
Jesus she talking about.
14:15
I hit the floor and immediately I am bawling and I'm, I'm like 10, 11 years old and
14:23
I'm
14:23
bawling crazy and I'm like, Lord, today, I'm sorry and I hurt you.
14:29
I'm sorry that I crucified your hands and I saw, because I knew that part.
14:34
I said, I didn't mean to do that.
14:36
And today I cussed a whole lot.
14:39
I'm sorry.
14:40
I'm crying and I'm telling them everything.
14:42
Please forgive me.
14:43
Help me.
14:44
Next thing I know my knees are hurting really bad and I must have fell asleep a
14:50
long
14:50
time and I heard as a Frederick and I woke up, oh, my God.
14:59
And I walked up to her paying for impact because a rule in the house and my mother
15:03
didn't
15:03
play.
15:04
She would slap you upside your head just before child protective service.
15:08
You know, and she looked at me and she said, what are you doing?
15:14
But she must have stood there and saw me on my knees because she said, go to bed
15:23
and
15:23
that's where the journey for God started, yeah.
15:33
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15:50
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16:03
You're listening to the documentary on the BBC World Service with me, Swazi Shiri
16:08
and
16:08
I'm joined by special guest and gospel artist Fred Hammond.
16:12
Wow, this is what is so incredible.
16:16
It's one thing to know the music but another to know the stories and the life of
16:20
the person
16:20
behind it all.
16:22
Hearing Fred say he was born out of wedlock seems like an old fashioned label but
16:26
something
16:27
he seems to have carried with him.
16:29
One married mother in the early 1960s were frowned upon by society and Fred has
16:34
previously
16:34
shared that just before his mom died she revealed she tried to have an abortion and
16:39
was sorry.
16:40
Despite going ahead with the procedure, it didn't work.
16:44
Fred sees the fact he survived as a moment of God's hand of protection and providence
16:48
over
16:49
his life.
16:50
He's also been open about other painful moments he's gone through publicly, from
16:54
his divorce
16:55
and the impact that has had on his family to his physical suffering with multiple
17:00
knee
17:00
operations and a fall from stage just two years ago.
17:05
When I saw him perform in London recently he was on crutches and shared with the
17:09
crowd
17:09
about how his music has helped him overcome the dark periods in his life.
17:14
I asked Fred if like his mom there had ever been a time when his faith may have wavered
17:20
and if he'd ever felt like walking away because of his suffering.
17:24
The only way I dealt with that kind of stuff is when people don't understand is
17:30
there's
17:31
a certain part of your life that you're going to have to deal with.
17:35
You're going to have to deal with certain parts of your flesh and your life and it
17:41
is
17:41
all a part of the process and a lot of people walk away because they give up
17:45
because they
17:46
don't feel like they can make it and I felt like I couldn't make it all the way
17:49
through.
17:50
I was dealing with so many different things you know trying to go through and you're
17:54
just
17:54
going through life pressures, flesh pressures but I never wanted to walk away from
17:59
it.
18:00
Ever did I want to walk away from it for no reason.
18:03
I was in Paris, I was guilty, I walked in shame but my thing was the good man falls
18:12
he
18:12
gets back up and that's what I did but I never was leaving.
18:16
You know I was holding on to him like yeah I'm not leaving here till you bless me.
18:20
So I went through my life and all of the struggles of life so that now at this age
18:26
I can
18:26
tell people and I've been there and I understand what you feel don't give up, don't
18:32
give up.
18:33
Somebody blessed me with that when I told them this is how I'm feeling and if I
18:38
were to
18:38
give up it was because I felt like I was so unworthy like I'm just going to stop
18:44
embarrassing you know I'm tired you know I don't want to embarrass you but at the
18:49
end
18:49
of the day it was for me to get here so I can tell other people and never stand on
18:55
this
18:55
purchase of perfect or I didn't you all need to get yourself together you're going
18:59
to
18:59
hell you know I'm not like those people that preach that I don't have to preach
19:04
hell.
19:04
Hell exists it's in the Bible you have a Bible and I have a Bible so what my job is
19:11
is
19:11
to uplift and inspire and hopefully your pastor one plants and one waters and God
19:19
gives
19:19
an increase so my job is to not condemn you but to love you and not but I'm not
19:25
going
19:26
to cuddle you and say it's okay to go being sin I'm just going to say I understand
19:32
and but keep pushing keep trying keep walking if that's my job with music and you
19:38
know
19:38
how I inspire people well we saw you do that on your tiny desk we was very happy Mr.
19:51
Fred Hammond how did that come about and what was that response like so many of us
19:56
walking
19:56
with your music to see you on tiny desk that must have been a real moment for you I
20:00
was
20:00
you know it's funny because the year before that you know artists every hours they
20:06
don't
20:06
let them fool you nobody wants to do small stuff every artist every artist that
20:13
comes
20:14
up does not see themselves in a little room or a little church we all see ourselves
20:20
on a big stage in front of thousands of people sharing our gift and sharing the
20:27
Lord
20:27
no matter how annoying we are that is where we thought and year before that I've
20:32
been
20:32
in Africa in front of three hundred and a half a million people me Kirk Frankie and
20:37
London Adams Clark sisters Marvin Sap and Keir Shere did an arena tour just a year
20:43
before
20:43
that and I thought how who would ever thought after wanting to be on them big
20:50
stages that
20:50
we want to get to the smallest stage which is a tiny desk that we would treat that
20:56
that
20:56
as big as honor as every the platform is bigger than as big as anything else and it
21:04
was
21:04
an honor to do it it's a culture this is our culture it's our music culture and and
21:12
they
21:12
let me do my thing they say you know you got 18 minutes pick the song you want and
21:16
let's
21:16
go and set another and it was hard to do because tiny desk audio wise you know we're
21:23
used to in here's yeah we can stay in pitch we used to be able to hear through the
21:28
microphone
21:28
and hear it in the room none of that really wow the if the the background singers
21:35
only had
21:35
two mics and we have no monitors there's no monitor yeah it is beautiful but we
21:44
depend
21:44
on hearing so we can stay in tunes best we can and and you know and the band had to
21:51
play
21:51
really really soft and it was this and so it was a different experience so we just
21:57
we just
21:58
had to trust it and we had a absolute ball it was great and I called that stuff the
22:05
grace of
22:06
God yeah I'm not supposed to be here I'm illegitimate and my mother had an abortion
22:12
and I'm not
22:12
supposed and it didn't work so when I look at this and I see people doing no weapon
22:18
and the
22:18
kids dancing this is grace wow I say I'm not supposed to even be here so I cannot
22:24
glory in any
22:25
of this it's the grace of God that he said watch look what I did with you yeah
22:31
everybody counted
22:33
you and your mama out when she did a threw her away they took her up to Detroit and
22:38
they threw
22:38
it in an attic and nobody wanted to be bothered with you or her but look what I
22:42
told you I take
22:44
that message and I make it I make the mess out of a message yeah yeah look at that
22:50
well what does
22:50
that say about God's grace of your life and his providence the message I sing about
22:54
yeah and
22:56
that's the beauty is because my message is not doctrine heavy or organizational
23:02
heavy is just
23:03
glorifying God a lot of people that may not know God I know guys that told me man I
23:09
was smoking
23:09
the blunt thing glory to glory to glory and I was just I was high but I was singing
23:15
that song
23:16
so that's my job is to give you some phonics so that in the middle of just it just
23:21
creeps into your
23:22
atmosphere you know I got had a guy walk up to me and he was he was in prison and
23:28
he was like
23:29
man you guys are doing a great work well we would sing testimony service to you so
23:33
when we put
23:34
her on and sing testimony sir and he said and don't you let no bleep bleep and all
23:38
these little bleep bleeps
23:39
out there bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep don't shoot at them
23:42
because you praise
23:43
and God man you get no save and I was like yeah man I said I get it hey man and
23:49
people around me
23:50
were saying oh man don't say that I said I'll let that man alone this is what he
23:54
knows the God
23:56
knows is that God heard cussing before yeah come on man get that word out
24:04
when Fred did his tiny desk concert people in the comments pointed out that they
24:12
had spotted his
24:15
daughter Brienne singing with him which was a huge moment as they spent time apart
24:19
since Fred's
24:20
divorce just three years ago Brienne appeared on a show in the US called grown in
24:25
gospel that followed
24:26
her story and her relationship with her famous father I asked him what's it been
24:26
like to reconcile
24:32
with his daughter more recently it's been great you know she lives with me still we
24:38
still doing what
24:38
we do it's amazing you have to let your kids be them at the certain point and they
24:44
have to make their
24:46
mind up and you have to put yourself in a position once they're out of your care
24:50
you know you have to
24:52
trust that you know train up a child in the way that they're bent and when they're
24:57
older you know
24:59
they will not be parted don't mean train them to go to Sunday school they're gonna
25:01
always go
25:02
to Sunday good now it just means that the law will always be with them whatever
25:06
decision
25:07
and one of the things I used during that time was the prodigal son father gave him
25:14
what he asked
25:17
and the father was sad we know that the father was sad but and at some point in
25:24
time his son
25:25
had to come to himself and after a while all I would do is say you know when when
25:30
she went on that
25:32
up grown in gospel program yeah I never really commented I never commented I said
25:40
one time
25:42
I'm on the shelf where you put me and if you ever need me just remember the shelf
25:49
and come and and I'll be there and I had to go through and people was saying this I
25:54
said nah I just
25:54
sat there until one day everything I said running her ears everybody that was
26:01
supposed to be for
26:02
her turned against her and she can only do is just come on the dad my son there is
26:08
he said you
26:09
have a whole house and a whole dad and you won't go home because you're shame I'm
26:16
gonna tell you
26:17
not he said that's crazy me he said and she came through and she said Dad I'm sorry
26:23
everything you
26:24
said happened and she was under the way from my covering and they devoured her
26:31
until she walked
26:33
through the door and I say well you home now let's go and we've been on that
26:37
journey and it's been
26:39
it's been great now she's my real estate agent she works with me and in that you
26:43
know and she
26:44
sings yeah beautiful absolutely beautiful I want to joy and thank you so much for
26:51
all the music
26:51
that you've given us thank you thank you wow what an incredible conversation with
27:09
Fred Hammond
27:10
someone whose music has been a lot to me over the years and to hear his story is
27:15
just amazing
27:16
what I love most about talking to Fred was his honesty there's no denying that he's
27:21
overcome
27:21
real difficulties and hearing these stories whether it be your faith or repentance
27:26
or resilience
27:28
encourages me to remember we're all human and it gives me the full picture of how
27:33
he's penned
27:34
such amazing recalls over the years that still pack so much truth and power you've
27:49
been
27:49
listening to the documentary on the BBC World Service with me Swazi Shiri the
27:54
producer was Miriam
27:56
Williamson get more with BBC podcasts wherever you listen be the first to listen to
28:03
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28:10
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