0:00
A.B.C. Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music and more.
0:07
This will had come about in the most suspicious circumstances you could possibly
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imagine.
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Who gets what when someone dies and who decides?
0:15
The difficulty with undue influence often is proving it.
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Join me, Damien Carrick, for the LoraPod Special Series on Wheels, over my dead
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body.
0:25
The person felt like they had no option, but it's difficult to prove that.
0:29
To hear, search for the LoraPod and look out for over my dead body.
0:33
Find it on A.B.C. Listen, or wherever you get your podcasts.
0:38
There was a time when Carly Dober really wanted closure on something that had
0:42
happened to her.
0:44
She thought it would help her heal.
0:49
How do I put this? I thought it would be a good idea to try to seek justice through
0:55
the legal system
0:56
for something that occurred to me when I was younger.
0:59
I just thought, this is what I need and it was disastrous for my mental health.
1:07
Carly doesn't want to say the exact nature of what happened
1:10
and that's not the point here anyways.
1:12
The point for today's episode is the goal that she was focused on.
1:16
Closure, how old were you when you were going through this?
1:19
I think I was about 21.
1:21
I knew that the justice system could be slow and not very survivor-focused,
1:29
but what I will say is just even little things like being told off about feeling in
1:33
paperwork
1:34
wrong when you are so so full of nerves.
1:38
Just little things like that you can't stress enough
1:42
how much that just like that upends your whole week.
1:45
The morning of her court case, Carly hit the eject button.
1:49
I wasn't sleeping about a week before I was meant to turn up
1:53
and I just thought, this is not going to end well.
1:55
Whatever happens, it's not going to end well.
1:57
I'm just with the rates of conviction and other things.
2:02
I didn't think it was worth the toll on my mental health anymore.
2:07
For Carly, the quest for closure had become a trap.
2:14
I absolutely look back now and I know that part of me was hoping
2:17
that this was the thing that was going to fix me.
2:20
This was the thing that was going to cure my PTSD, cure my insomnia.
2:24
I get me able to participate fully in the life that I wanted to live
2:28
and it just didn't.
2:30
Carly has been thinking about the false promise of closure for a few years now,
2:35
not just because of her own experience,
2:36
but because she's a registered psychologist.
2:39
And this desire for closure has come up time and time again in her therapy room.
2:45
You will often hear people say, if I just know why,
2:49
if I get this one bit of information, I'll understand why they did this to me.
2:53
I can move on and for some people that that might be true.
2:57
However, for the majority of people clinically that I've worked with,
3:01
it's far more complex than that.
3:04
This isn't just Carly's personal hunch, it's backed up by research.
3:09
So what does the more complex path look like?
3:14
And why do we crave closure in the first place?
3:17
Closure is not the word you're looking for.
3:19
You're looking for certainty.
3:21
From ABC Radio National, this is all in the mind, I'm Sana Kadar.
3:26
Today, the myth of closure.
3:36
How long have you been thinking about the concept of closure
3:39
and how we might be getting it wrong?
3:41
Like, when did you start to notice in your practice with patients
3:44
and how they were talking about closure?
3:46
In my clinical work, part of my special interest area is working with trauma.
3:52
And what you find is people tell themselves a particular story
3:55
about what they've gone through, especially if it was something interpersonal or a
4:00
violation
4:01
that if I get a particular bit of information, then I will be healed.
4:06
I will be okay. I can move on.
4:09
So I've probably noticed that some people have this story
4:13
about their recovery journey for about the last 10 years.
4:17
And as I've specialized further in trauma
4:21
and in particular, childhood experiences of trauma, I've noticed quite a lot.
4:27
And I wonder if you've noticed it on social media as well?
4:30
Like, I'm pretty sure I've come across a lot of closure kind of related content.
4:34
Yeah, it's quite annoying for me to come across this stuff,
4:37
but it's often unregulated industries or clinicians or people just saying,
4:43
you know, if you do this, you will heal your trauma.
4:47
If you do this, you will get closure.
4:49
Do you remember specifics?
4:50
Oh my God, one person who had like a million followers on TikTok
4:54
was like, you know, clean your whole house and then like that,
4:57
that's closure for you after you've had a partner cheat on you.
5:00
Oh, gosh.
5:01
That sounds like a very nice way to finish off that trick.
5:04
Emotions sounds amazing, right? And again, I think there is a nice way,
5:09
but like nice to know it's such a clear, cut way of finishing it off.
5:13
Sounds amazing that there is such a clear cut way.
5:15
And again, I think there is utility in, you know, clearing your space
5:18
of people who have harmed you.
5:19
But as if you're not going to be upset, agitated, heartbroken,
5:25
after an hour of cleaning, if you've been living with a partner who's cheated on
5:28
you,
5:28
like, come on, yeah, yeah.
5:30
Yeah, there's other stuff that needs to be done there.
5:32
Yeah. And why do you think this idea of closure
5:36
is has such a stranglehold on us and has taken hold in popular culture?
5:41
I think that people have a particular story.
5:44
If they've had a pretty good life, that, you know, good things happen to me,
5:47
I will work hard, I'll get married, maybe I'll have kids, maybe I won't.
5:52
Good things will come my way and then I'll die at a ripe old age.
5:56
And then when something interrupts that story,
6:00
our minds search for answers, our minds wanting closure
6:06
because it will help us correct that story.
6:10
Closure is not the word you're looking for.
6:14
You're looking for certainty.
6:16
We are more comfortable with certainty knowing someone died,
6:20
knowing what the stock market is doing,
6:22
knowing whether somebody is with us or against us.
6:26
But closure is a misnomer.
6:29
This is Professor Emeritus Pauline Boss from the University of Minnesota.
6:33
She's a psychotherapist and researcher who's written a number of books on the topic
6:38
of loss,
6:38
including a book very appropriately titled The Myth of Closure.
6:42
And she's known for developing the concept of ambiguous loss,
6:46
losses in circumstances in which closure really isn't a possibility.
6:51
Like if a loved one goes missing and the body is never found.
6:56
You want to see a death certificate. You want to have remains.
7:00
You want to know if they are coming back or not
7:03
and you want to know if they are dead or alive.
7:07
You want to have the rituals that go along with it.
7:10
That's all certainty.
7:12
And if you think grief has closure,
7:15
even Elizabeth Kubler Ross said that wasn't true in her last book.
7:21
Elizabeth Kubler Ross, if you're not familiar,
7:23
is the Swiss American psychiatrist that popularized the idea
7:27
that there are five stages of grief?
7:29
She said the five stages were misunderstood.
7:32
It's messy, it's not linear.
7:35
You don't achieve closure when you've gotten through the fifth stage.
7:39
So why shouldn't people aim for closure?
7:43
Why should that not be the goal?
7:45
I just think it's a waste of time,
7:47
but it's also disillusioning.
7:50
It makes you feel like you have failed.
7:52
There is no closure if there was ever attachment.
7:57
There is no closure if there was ever attachment.
8:01
That explains why ambiguous loss can be especially torturous.
8:06
And Pauline conceptualizes ambiguous loss in two ways.
8:10
One, we've sort of already mentioned its physical ambiguous loss
8:14
where a person is physically absent, but psychologically present.
8:18
She studied this type of loss in the families of soldiers.
8:21
The family doesn't know if they're gone for certain
8:24
or coming back again.
8:26
And the second type is psychological ambiguous loss,
8:29
which she studied in families caring for someone with dementia.
8:34
Where the person they care about is physically present
8:38
right in front of them, but psychologically gone are going.
8:43
Both of these types of ambiguous loss are very painful and stressful.
8:48
In the more recent book, I also added personal ambiguous loss,
8:54
which is not in a relationship except just in a relationship
8:58
with you and your own body.
9:01
For example, if you're an athlete and you lose a leg for some reason,
9:05
that may be an ambiguous loss for you because you really were attached
9:10
to your athleticism.
9:12
And so there is such a thing as personal ambiguous loss as well.
9:16
With these various types of ambiguous loss,
9:19
what are the downstream effects that you have seen over your career
9:23
on families on individuals who suffer either type of ambiguous loss?
9:27
Does it splinter families?
9:29
Does it bring them together? Like what happens?
9:31
Family conflict almost always follows ambiguous loss.
9:35
And I understand why, because if you don't have facts
9:40
about the loss in your family or in your relationship,
9:44
everybody has their own theory about what's happened.
9:47
And so people argue with each other about,
9:50
should we have a funeral? Should we not?
9:52
Should I move on with my life? Should I not?
9:55
Am I still a wife if my husband has been missing for 20 years?
9:59
How can I be apart from this boyfriend?
10:03
If in fact, we were going together two years
10:06
and now he's in the same community as I am.
10:09
So it's confusing. And one of the things we must do with loss
10:14
is to find meaning in it.
10:16
And it's hard enough with a death in the family.
10:19
But it's even harder with ambiguous loss
10:22
to make sense of it, to find some meaning in it.
10:25
So it's a challenge.
10:27
This is exactly how psychologist Carly Dober has seen many
10:31
of her patients tie themselves into knots trying to find meaning
10:35
in unhelpful places.
10:37
Something like sexual or physical abuse experienced in childhood
10:42
from an adult violates everything that a child sees
10:47
as normal in the world.
10:49
And it can damage you in ways that are still unexpected
10:52
as you get older.
10:53
So often people think there's something fundamentally wrong
10:56
with me because this thing happened to me.
10:59
Why did it happen? Why me? Why when I was that young?
11:03
What did I do to deserve that?
11:05
And we know that there's nothing that a child can do
11:07
or anyone can do to deserve that.
11:09
However, how trauma impacts the person,
11:14
how it impacts their brain, their development,
11:17
they can get stuck sometimes wanting to find,
11:21
find that answer that makes sense to them.
11:23
And so they can be stuck sometimes thinking about,
11:26
well, how do I get this answer?
11:28
Who do I ask? How can I go about this?
11:30
And sometimes in the work that I do with people,
11:33
they'll say, you know, I'm just going to approach the person,
11:37
you know, in my family or in my church or I found the person online
11:41
or I'm going to approach them in some way.
11:44
And it's not my job to tell them what to do,
11:46
but it is my job to kind of explore their thinking with them
11:49
and to test their reality because, again,
11:53
their mind is telling them, if I do this, I will get this,
11:57
my life will be better, things everything will be changed.
12:00
And I just explore with them and they say,
12:03
well, if you do contact them,
12:06
what makes you think that they will respond to you
12:08
because if they've committed a crime,
12:10
a normal, reasonable person is not going to necessarily respond to that
12:15
because they're going to want to not be charged
12:17
or they're going to want to continue living their life.
12:20
And you're also assuming that they know why they did this.
12:23
They might not know why,
12:25
they might not have the insight or the capability to explain why.
12:29
And then finally, if you do contact them
12:32
and if they do respond to you
12:34
and if they have the self-awareness to explain why,
12:37
is it actually going to take away your pain?
12:39
Is it going to make you feel any better?
12:41
Because at the end of the day,
12:43
even if they say, well, you were there,
12:45
I wanted to, so I did it.
12:47
That's still awful.
12:49
That's still taken away so much of your time,
12:51
so much of your life, so much of your health,
12:54
is that going to actually help you in any way?
12:57
Yeah. And so when you have these kinds of conversations,
13:01
do you find people let go of the need for closure
13:04
or do some people still go ahead
13:06
and try to seek it by contacting that person,
13:08
like how do people react?
13:10
It's so varied.
13:11
Some people might sit on it for a bit longer
13:12
and they might sit on it for years
13:14
while also engaging in other things
13:16
that do actually help with recovery and healing
13:19
and some people might still be hell-bent.
13:22
Like, I'm going to do this, I have to do it.
13:24
I'm compelled to do this.
13:26
It's so varied.
13:28
This variation in how strongly people desire closure
13:32
has been observed in research as well.
13:34
An influential 1996 study found that people who are more rigid
13:39
in their thinking, who prefer order and predictability,
13:43
they struggle the most when they can't get answers and closure.
13:46
People who are more open-minded, creative,
13:49
who can tolerate ambiguity, they fare far better.
13:54
Other research from 2010 looked at the connection
13:57
between religious belief and the need for closure
14:00
and it found that the two are positively correlated.
14:03
If you're religious, you're more likely to desire closure
14:06
and order and predictability.
14:09
But religious belief can also help you achieve closure.
14:13
You can explain many things as simply God's will.
14:20
You're listening to All in the Mind from ABC Radio National.
14:24
I'm Sana Kadar.
14:26
Okay, we're going to get into what you can do to cope
14:29
in the absence of closure.
14:31
But first, I just want to mention that this need for answers,
14:35
it can arise in far less traumatic circumstances
14:38
than the stuff we've been talking about so far.
14:40
Here is psychologist, Carly Dober, again.
14:43
If you get pasta for a promotion at your job,
14:47
that's really annoying and a lot of your hopes
14:50
and dreams might hinge on that promotion.
14:52
So that's stressful.
14:54
Friendship breakdown or a breakup.
14:56
That can be really tricky, that can be really hard.
14:59
And then we have the more complex interpersonal issues
15:02
so betrayal or infidelity.
15:05
That can be really emotionally and psychologically damaging
15:08
for some people, depending on the circumstances
15:11
and what supports they have after.
15:13
Yeah, okay.
15:14
And in terms of like the examples of friendship breakups,
15:18
that's really interesting to me because I feel like
15:20
that's an area that we don't really know how to navigate
15:24
when friendships break up.
15:25
There's kind of a script with romantic breakups,
15:27
friendship breakups less so there can be a lot of ambiguity.
15:30
People can just sort of drop off the radar
15:32
and you don't know how to broach the conversation.
15:35
What goes on with those sorts of conversations
15:38
in your therapy room?
15:39
Yeah, I firstly normalize how awful a friendship breakup can be.
15:42
There are so many films, songs, poetry about the ending
15:46
of romantic relationships, but we're statistically more likely
15:49
to have friendship breakups because we have far more friends
15:52
in our lives, the majority of the time,
15:54
then we have romantic partners.
15:56
And they are as important and sometimes
15:58
if not more important than the people who we end up
16:01
with romantically, it's just not given the same kind of gravitas.
16:05
Yeah.
16:06
So I firstly normalize how awful it can be and how there is
16:09
a bit of a taboo element to a friendship breakup
16:12
because as I say, with there is a romantic relationship,
16:15
there's that kind of sexual attraction element
16:18
with a friendship breakup, it's just a personality thing.
16:21
Yeah.
16:22
It can almost feel a worse.
16:23
Yeah.
16:24
So we normalize that and then we talk about how,
16:26
if you can't talk to the person and you can't understand
16:29
or get their understanding why that friendship is ended,
16:32
how can you learn from this, how can you try to improve
16:36
your current relationships?
16:39
How can you nurture all of these other beautiful relationships
16:42
that you have in your life?
16:44
And whether or not you and your friend come together again
16:47
is up to the future, but how can you,
16:50
how can you move through this in a way that is helpful for you?
16:54
Yeah.
16:55
And with the betrayal part,
16:57
the infidelity or romantic relationship breakup,
17:00
like I've certainly watched friends experience this
17:03
and go bonkers trying to get answers.
17:06
And the partner is not a very nice person
17:09
and so isn't really forthcoming with answers.
17:12
It kind of just ends without closure, really.
17:15
Is that a common sort of thing?
17:17
The going bonkers part, very common.
17:19
And it makes sense, right?
17:20
Because again, you trust this person,
17:22
you think this person loves you
17:24
and will act in ways that show that love and trust
17:27
and then you find out that you've been betrayed
17:29
and it can be against, it's world-shaking.
17:33
And I do find that a lot of people,
17:35
the majority of people that I do work with,
17:38
even people in my personal life,
17:40
they will be so single-minded
17:42
about getting all the information,
17:44
understanding who, what, where, why.
17:46
And again, sometimes it can actually just make things so much worse.
17:50
Is there not some value in trying to find out why though?
17:54
Like I, we've talked about why people crave closure.
17:58
But like I also instinctively can understand
18:01
the need for some of that information
18:03
to like put what happened to rest.
18:07
Where are we going wrong with this?
18:08
Yeah, I absolutely understand.
18:10
I would be going bonkers
18:11
and I would want the information myself.
18:13
And I think it also,
18:15
it helps you to kind of put into practice.
18:18
Well, is this relationship over?
18:20
Can this person be honest?
18:22
Can they have a mature conversation
18:23
about what happened and why?
18:25
You know, I don't need to have war and peace
18:28
levels of information about it.
18:30
But can you actually communicate to me about what's going on for you?
18:33
Are you open and willing to share this part of you
18:36
that has also been so harrowing for me?
18:39
And actually, when we're talking about people repartnering
18:43
or the relationship being worked on,
18:46
a big part of it is sharing enough about what occurred.
18:49
So there is that rebuilding of trust.
18:52
So I think there is merit to it but if you do find yourself
18:55
being overly, overly invested in this,
18:58
wanting like the minutiae all the time,
19:01
you're finding it very difficult to think about anything else
19:04
and it's impacting your functioning
19:06
and your quality of life,
19:08
that could indicate that there might be some support
19:11
that you need outside of that person.
19:14
Pauline Boss, the author of The Myth of Closure,
19:17
who's also a psychologist and professor emeritus
19:19
at the University of Minnesota,
19:21
she has a few other ideas on what else
19:24
you can do to try and cope in the absence of closure.
19:28
I would recommend that they try both and thinking,
19:32
which would be my boyfriend,
19:34
my girlfriend is still here
19:37
and we are seeking other relationships.
19:40
He is here and not in my life anymore.
19:44
So it's both conflicting statements.
19:47
You see, it takes a little bit of going beyond our usual education
19:52
to hold two opposing ideas in your mind at the same time
19:56
and that's what you need to do with ambiguous laws.
19:59
He is here and yet not in my life anymore.
20:02
My grandmother is here but she's also gone.
20:06
And if you start doing that,
20:08
you'll find out your stress level goes down
20:11
because thinking in a both-and way
20:14
is as close to the truth as you can get
20:17
with some ambiguous losses.
20:19
Neither answer is the truth to say,
20:22
he's out of my life or he's totally in my life.
20:26
Neither of those are true.
20:28
So you have to find the middle ground, so to speak.
20:31
And a lot of the surface level advice,
20:34
anyways, on social media,
20:36
you find about achieving closure is you know,
20:39
you can try and write a letter to the person
20:41
who's no longer there.
20:43
Is that a step that can be useful for people?
20:46
Like would you recommend putting your thoughts down on paper?
20:49
Yes, say what you need to say.
20:51
And that's a very symbolic way to do it.
20:55
After the tsunami in Japan,
20:57
there was a telephone booth that had been knocked over halfway
21:01
and people continued to go into it after the tsunami
21:05
to call their loved ones who were washed away.
21:08
It gave them so much comfort that the Japanese government,
21:13
I understand, has now write the phone booth,
21:16
made it secure again.
21:18
And it's called the Winchell phone.
21:20
I believe you can Google it.
21:22
So if it makes you feel better to do something symbolic
21:26
like that, do it by all means,
21:29
because it may give you some peace.
21:32
And that's what you want.
21:34
So keep people in your heart and mind if they meant a lot to you.
21:39
If they didn't mean a lot to you,
21:41
they'll still pop up now and then don't get scared by that.
21:45
And if they were mean to you, a negative relationship,
21:49
you may need to get some help with getting over the trauma
21:53
of what happened to you with that person.
21:56
But they still aren't erased out of your life 100%.
22:00
That's just the way human relationships are.
22:03
But again, I say if there was attachment,
22:06
if there wasn't a deep attachment,
22:08
then you don't have to go this route.
22:11
And in situations where someone has wronged you,
22:14
Carly is also a fan of the letter writing method.
22:18
I go a bit further.
22:19
I say you can write whatever you want in this letter.
22:21
You can write F word 50 times over.
22:25
You can write the most hateful things.
22:27
You just need to get it out of your system out of your head,
22:29
because if you don't, it's just going to ricochet around.
22:31
Keep you up, get it all out, get it down,
22:34
scribble, burn it, throw it, do whatever you want to it.
22:37
Like destroy that paper and then go for a walk
22:40
or go to a dance class or go for a run or go for a swim.
22:44
But you need to move your body as well,
22:46
because emotions, they are a cycle.
22:49
You need to let that emotion complete its cycle
22:52
and through body-based things, that's amazing.
22:56
It feels like the idea of closure, the way we talk about it,
23:00
is something we are looking to get from the other person.
23:04
But can it be closure if you decide within yourself?
23:08
I am going to accept the ambiguity and I'm going to move on.
23:13
I'm never going to have the answers I want,
23:15
but I'm going to try other things instead.
23:17
Like is closure something you can claim for yourself?
23:19
I think closure is absolutely something you can claim for yourself.
23:23
And that can be even talking to experts in a field
23:26
or reading up articles or books about why people do some things.
23:31
You might never get the reason why this person did this thing to you.
23:35
But understanding broad themes can sometimes be really helpful information
23:40
generally
23:40
because again, a lot of these acts can violate what you think can know
23:45
to be true about the world or about yourself.
23:47
And understanding that yes, you experienced it, it is awful.
23:52
And you are one of unfortunately, one of many millions of people
23:57
who have experienced this as well, sometimes billions,
24:00
very shared humanity in that.
24:02
I guess that explains why show like ours really connects with people.
24:07
I hear from people all the time saying exactly that,
24:09
this episode or a help to me understands something about my life,
24:13
which is wonderful.
24:14
And again, understanding that it's not just you because in the moment,
24:18
if you've been cheated on, if you have the only one in your family or friendship
24:23
groups
24:23
that's had an early diagnosis of cancer or MS,
24:27
if you have experienced significant neglect or abuse,
24:31
you can feel like it's only you.
24:33
It is very isolating, it is awful.
24:36
But again, understanding that this happens to people
24:39
and people can have rich and meaningful lives,
24:42
that can be incredibly, incredibly powerful.
24:45
Both Carly and Pauline also recommend seeking novelty
24:49
and doing something creative as a way to process what you've been through.
24:53
If you are musical, write a song, write a poem, paint, create.
24:58
Yeah, try new things as well.
25:00
So if you've always wanted to go, you know, try a book club.
25:03
Do that if you just wanted to try Tai Chi.
25:05
Do that.
25:06
But try new things because novelty is also a really nice distraction.
25:10
It's giving people tools to cope with ambiguity.
25:14
Things like go fishing, go to improvisational theater,
25:19
go see abstract art and a museum, listen to jazz music,
25:24
all these things that some of us who are socialized to be,
25:29
to find the answer or to do binary thinking,
25:33
that would balance that out.
25:35
So sometimes the therapy,
25:37
the stress-based therapy is to catch yourself out
25:40
and to do something different that you haven't done before,
25:43
that challenges yourself.
25:45
Certainly I have a Swiss American upbringing of my Swiss parents.
25:52
So I was told that being decisive and having precision was a good thing.
25:58
Right?
25:59
I spent my lifetime trying to make my peace with ambiguity.
26:04
But I have done it through the arts.
26:06
That has been a good therapy because artists tend to like it.
26:12
Like ambiguity and they can teach us how to embrace it as well.
26:18
They also save fishermen are a great intolerance for ambiguity.
26:22
That they like to go even when they don't catch something.
26:26
So we need to take a lighter touch on this.
26:30
If you need therapy, find out if the therapist has read on ambiguous laws.
26:35
A lot of them have.
26:37
If they haven't, then I would look for somebody else if that is what you want to
26:43
talk about.
26:43
And as for Carly's own experience in her early 20s,
26:46
trying to get closure on something that had happened to her,
26:49
going through the court system,
26:51
stopping the court process,
26:53
I wanted to know if over the years she ever felt like she had achieved
26:56
some version of closure on that.
26:59
No, I didn't.
27:00
Okay.
27:01
I think I was like desperately wanting an answer that made sense
27:06
in my mind and I got an answer from the person,
27:12
but it just pissed me off even more.
27:15
And I just, yeah, I think that set me back a little bit.
27:18
However, I was able to again lean on like amazing people in my life away from that.
27:23
I was able to do beautiful things.
27:25
I was able to study and enrich my brain in many ways.
27:27
And you know, see beautiful parts of the world that again updated my story.
27:32
You know, bad things can happen to people, but good things can happen too.
27:36
And so it sounds like, yeah, closure is a long term ongoing process,
27:41
not a final dot at the end of a sentence.
27:44
Yeah, I always say closure is a journey, not a destination.
27:46
You know, if you get it, I am so happy for you,
27:49
but I think if you hinge your recovery or your life on that,
27:53
you might be let down.
27:58
That is Carly Dober, registered psychologist and clinic owner at Enriching Life
28:04
Psychology.
28:05
She's also the policy coordinator at the Australian Association of Psychologists
28:11
Incorporated.
28:12
You also heard from Dr. Pauline Boss, professor emeritus at the University of
28:17
Minnesota
28:18
and psychologist and author of many books, including The Myth of Closure.
28:25
That is it for all in the mind this week.
28:27
If you want to not just listen to more all in the mind, but watch it,
28:31
you can head to Instagram or YouTube.
28:34
We've been posting more clips from the show on both those platforms.
28:38
On Instagram, just head to the ABC Radio National page at ABC Radio National
28:44
or ABC Health at ABC Health or my own page at Sana_Kadar.
28:50
And over on YouTube, you can head to the ABC Science Channel.
28:54
Thanks to producer Rose Kerr and senior producer James Bullin.
28:58
And a big thank you to you for listening.
29:01
I will catch you next time.
29:25
You've been listening to an ABC podcast.
29:29
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